A few interesting rules came up across the day of the tournament which
I thought I would see your opinions on them. The first one is quite
interesting, and was hotly debated as both sides of the rule refused to accept
the other. The second, not so much, more of a query from me.
OK so the big rules question was concerning Daemon princes from the
chaos daemons list. The rules question was, if a winged daemon prince goes to
ground, in his next turn can he elect to swoop and still move? Now I have the
rules here for you so see:
Going to ground p18: ‘after the enemy has rolled to hit and wound but
before any saves are made or wounds allocated, you can declare that the unit is
going to ground... a unit that has gone to ground cannot move, run or charge.
It can only fire snap shots when it wishes to shoot, and can fire over watch...
If the unit is forced to move, for example they have to fall back, it returns
to normal immediately’
So that’s nice and clear, now the rules for flying monstrous creatures
p.49:
Changing flight mode: ‘At the start of its move, a flying monstrous
creature must declare whether it is swooping or gliding until the start of its
next turn’
Swooping: ‘If a flying monstrous creature is swooping, it moves
exactly like a jump monstrous creature with the following exactions: It MUST
move at least 12...’
Now the argument here was if a daemon prince elects to swoop, it must
move, so it reverts back to normal as per the rules for going to ground and no
longer needs to snap shot etc... Now I feel while technically that is correct
by the wording of the book, it’s wrong in spirit. The only argument that I could
think of was that you are not allowed to move so the ‘at the start of its move’
part didn’t trigger. But that’s just me. What do you guys think on this?
And before you say what i said 'Aren't princes fearless?' no, they have demonic instability which isn't fearless, its just very similar.
The second rules question was that someone said I could only claim a
cover save from a defence line if I am within 2 inches of it, now I have looked
over the rule book, the FAQ and I can’t find anything to confirm this. We asked
a few other people at the tournament and they seemed to side with my opponent
so I went with it, as it didn’t change much at all.
If you know this is how defence lines are to be played please give me
a page reference, or an FAQ that can confirm this, as right now I have nothing
that suggests it and the defence line will grant cover saves to anyone who is obscured
by it no matter how far away they are. Please can someone help me with this?
"and the defense line will grant cover saves to anyone who is obscured by it no matter how far away they are."
ReplyDeleteThat would be how I would take it cover is worked out by TLOS so thats how fortifications should work
I feel the opposite way. 40K is a static representation of a fluid battlefield. To me you want to be hunkered down nice and close to that wall. Perhaps not RaW but it's my preference. Also with the TLOS argument would I not get the same cover save from your shooting?
ReplyDeleteI think the 2" thing is a hold over to a previous edition. Soon after 6th game in I was looking in the rules and came to the same conclusion was Leyzer, there's nothing about the 2", only if the target is obscured. Not only that but you can give the enemy a cover save if some of your models aren't close enough to the defense line.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the swooping question I would say that you can not choose the option to swoop if you can not move. However I've never found a definitive rules quote or FAQ to support either side of the argument, but I think common sense and RAI supports my view. I can't see their argument working either because if you choose to swoop you are breaking a clear rule; either he pinning rules that say you can not move or the swooping rules that say you must move.
Rathstar
You are not forced to move. You are choosing to move by choosing the swoop status. You have another option that does not requirement movement so you are required to select that one.
ReplyDelete1. Monsterous creatures cannot go to ground so the first question doesn't need to be answered.
ReplyDelete2. If you are say 6" away from an aegis line firing over it then both you and your target will get the cover save.
Actually monstrous creatures can go to ground, no rule stops them doing this. Only the fearless rule does, and monsters aren't automatically fearless.
DeleteMonstrous creatures can Go To Ground. However, the restriction of Going to Ground of not being able to move stops you from being able to move. You could use Unit Coherency as an example. Units MUST stay within 2'' of each other at all times. What happens if they take casualties and Go To Ground but some of the unit is outside of 2''? Do you automatically move them back into coherency with one another? No, you move them back into coherency when you are allowed to move them. Same thign with the Prince. He will HAVE to move 12'' when he is allowed to move.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the Defense Line goes, True Line of Sight is the rule to use. If you are obscured by the Line, you are obscured, period. I dont care if your 20'' away, obscured is obscured. I don't know what Anonymous is talkign about with the 6'' thing. That is no rule. There will be cases where each person would get cover from the other, but 6'' is not the rule to use, True Line of Sight is.
Hopefully these didn't screw you over in any of your games. That would be a shame.
I think anonymous is just giving an example with the 6" it could be 3" or 30"
DeleteI think he's agreeing with you
As an IG player that uses Aegis fairly often I'm confronted with the LOS argument with them all of the time (to the point where I sometimes don't take one just to avoid the argument. Yes, you get the cover save if you're 25% obscured (Aegises are not area terrain) so you're pretty likely to get the save even far behind the line. The common exception to this is tall models and vehicles that have high mounted guns (since their LOS is higher they might avoid the D.line if you're not right up next to it.) Of course, the D.line grants the save both ways, especially if you're far back from it yourself. In my lists, I usually grant the save from infantry and the Hull/Sponson weapons of my tanks but turrets are more than high enough that it doesn't interfere.
ReplyDeleteThe monstrous creature argument is harder, and without a genuinely clear answer (come one FAQ time!) My personal opinion, and how I'd play my army if I actually had any flying monstrous creatures, is that Going to Ground forbids you to move so you can only chose to glide. Swooping requires you move but choosing to swoop is a voluntary action that you don't have to take. Not being allowed to move, and having a legal movement mode and allows you to not move, should forbid you from taking the other options. Just my 2 cents.